Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

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Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Ranch Dog »

Yesterday afternoon I was able to clear enough ranch chores, or ignore them, to set up and start casting for this project. Since my "Part I" post I've been digging through storage closets and shelves as I'm came to realize that I've been here before. I started casting with linotype better than 15 years ago because that is the alloy I had.

When I became interested in casting, I checked into an abandoned, small town printing press. I contacted the owner and offered to haul all the lead away. They countered with me doing the work and paying them 5¢/lb as someone else had just contacted them as well but they didn't want to pay anything for it. It took me four days of picking up the cast type and $100 but I had moved 2,000 pounds of this premium alloy to my home!

I started casting with it directly and had problems with crumbling bullets. At the time I was communicating with Marshall Stanton and Pete Thornily concerning the 444 Marlin and they suggested that I add 5% lead to my mix. That was easy as I hung out for coffee every morning at an old school hardware store that still sold pure lead for plumbing in 1 lb bars for $10. The store owner hadn't sold any in a long time so he cut the price 50% and sold me his 20 remaining bars for $5/each. As I recall, I had him order another 10 lbs and I remember being a bit surprised at the price as it was $15/lb.

My initial interest in cast bullets was to use an alloy that would allow me to use the 444 Marlin at jacketed bullet velocities. With the supporting advice of the two individuals it was easily achieved once I had a .432" bullet but that is another story. With the 95% linotype/5% Pb I was able to drive a 265-grain bullet on target at 2460 FPS.

Initially I had a lot of old school casters tell me that the mix would come apart on critters but it didn't and that is why I've always been a non-traditionalist when it comes to casting as they were wrong. The experience taught me to put the old stuff aside and forge ahead. Here is a nilgai that I killed with the 265-grain 95LT/5Pb bullet.

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The bullet when through both shoulder bones on this critter and stopped in the 1/2" thick hide on the opposite side. When the animal was skinned, the bullet had totally separated the hide from the meat on the exit side quarter. I would like to have had a high speed video to see how far from the body the hide stretched. Here is the bullet. The linotype did not blow up, fragment, or experience any kind of failure.

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I've always been a bit OCD with my casting and loading notes mainly because I have a very short memory. So, I used spiral notebooks to record everything that I do and I've had a enjoyable couple weeks of reading my past.

As I started my mold business I had to get away from linotype and start using wheel weights as few have the better alloy. Everything is different with the wheel weights, it is a lot harder to work with, and the results at the casting table through a critter laying on the ground is different. All that linotype has sat right where I put it until now.[hr]
Enough background talk. I used the 95% linotype/5% lead mix to cast my TLC311-170-RF, TLC310-165-RF, and TLC310-180-RF designs.

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I cast roughly 100, after culls, of each design.

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Linotype is really an easy alloy to work with. It pours like water and leaves silver bullets in it's wake!

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I air cooled the bullets on a towel and the BHN is up where I need it. The picture shows the BHN slightly over 20 but it it was slightly under, 19, just like the calculator predicted. I think the camera lense was below level on the scale, viewing slightly upward.

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A 5# mallet was applied directly to a few of the culls, the same mallet I whacked bullets with over 15 years ago on the advice of the two fellows I mentioned. I hit them as hard as I could, there is not much give to the alloy. The bullet on the far right is another spent critter killer, a 444 Marlin bullet cast of linotype.

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Today, all the bullets will be heated in my little oven and cold water quenched. They will also be check and sized as soon as they are out of the water.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Missionary »

Howdy Mr. Mike
You may have commented on this and if so just point me along...
The TLC310-165 for the 300 Savage... What would be your thoughts about running this bullet in a 300 Savage model 99 from about the 1950's ? That is the 300 Savage type I am blessed with. Thank you !
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Ranch Dog »

Missionary wrote:Howdy Mr. Mike
You may have commented on this and if so just point me along...
The TLC310-165 for the 300 Savage... What would be your thoughts about running this bullet in a 300 Savage model 99 from about the 1950's ? That is the 300 Savage type I am blessed with. Thank you !
Mike in Peru till June
I don't see why it wouldn't Mike, I designed it for a SAAMI chamber.

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The older Savages can have a tight groove diameter .307" and possibly as tight as ".306" The bore diameter usually corresponds in kind. I designed the bullet with a tapered top band for the groove that runs from .307" to .309" and a bore rider nose that runs from .299" to .300".

The Micro-Bands are cut deep to .293" so the bullet should have no problem sizing to .308" if you have one of the tight 99s.

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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Ranch Dog »

Started with the 30-30 Win TLC311-170-RF bullets. Just threw them in the oven running a temperature of 450°.

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Everything was good until about 50 minutes into the cook...

Disaster Struck

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Funny thing is that the only time I tried this before, 15 years ago, the same thing happened at the same temperature setting. Back then, I was using the oven in the kitchen when momma was out of town and it stunk the house up so bad I had to leave the windows open for two days. I figured it was a poor thermostat control that over tempt the linotype. It supposedly melts at 463°.

Okay, put the 300 Savage TLC310-165-RFs in the oven setup for 425°. Like the 450°, the oven was struggling back and forth about 15°. At the 50 minute mark I noticed that one bullet had melted so I dumped them in the ice water. I also noticed that with the bullets just scattered on the sheet, the area of contact was marked so I was worried about the bullets being out of round. Scrapped another.

Round three with the 308 Win TLC310-180-RFs, this time setup at 400°. First things first though, I did not want the bullets laying down but there is a real problem with keep these long projectiles standing. Cured it real quick by melting some stick bullet wax on the sheet and then sticking the base of the bullets on it. Worked like a charm! The Lee NRA Formula Bee's Wax smoked a bit at the start and that was it. I only cooked half the bullets this time, only takes me twice to learn!

Right off the bat I noticed that the little oven was very comfortable with this temperature. It did not waver a bit.

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No, problems. After an hour, they went right off the cookie sheet into the super cold water and I loaded the remainder of the bullets into the oven.

I think this is going to work! I saved some of the first & second batch bullets that didn't melt but had gone into the drink so that I could use them as test mules for BHN and smashing. Here is the TLC310-165-RF six hours into the cure. About 29 BHN when I look square at the tester.

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That's what I'm looking for as a minimum for the 300 Sav & 308 Win. I want the 165-grain & 180-grain bullets to cook along at 2500 minimum and this BHN should do it given the pressure it will take. I would like to see them go into the low 30's. The bullets still flatten a bit without fracturing. They are tough for sure and you know you hit something solid. The large meplat is gon'na make quite a "crack" when it whacks a hog.

Now, I'm gon'na try to recast the 30-30 Win & 300 Sav bullets this evening and cook them tomorrow. The 308 bullets are gas checked and ready for the Ben's Liquid Lube treatment. You really have to get on the gas check seating and sizing as this alloy with the treatment gets tough quick!
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by GasGuzzler »

I've had recent alloy trouble and without research I've gone to the oven and hammer method.

Weird I'm doing something right on my own. Maybe.

The real problems happen when a semi-cooled scrap ingot scatters in a million grainy directions when dropped on the floor. Probably for another topic but what confuses me is the stuff that looks sandy right out of the melt but you can pound it with a hammer when still hot without breaking it or put it in a vice and bend it over without breaking.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Ranch Dog »

The 30-30 Win and 300 Savage bullets are recast...
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Ranch Dog »

Can't believe I spent four days on this. Run into to various problems but try to continue to find fixes.

First, the bullets are going to need to get to 440°, to achieve the hardness that I'm looking for. There is a fine line between the 440° and the alloy melting point of linotype, depending on the source 463° to 475°, I believe the lower temperature based on my experience.

Because of the meltdown, I've cast my bullets and cooked them at 400° & 425°. No change is taking place between the BHN or the air cooled bullet to that of the heated/cooled bullet. It appears that the only thing that is happening with the heating at these lower temperatures and the rapid cooling is a uniforming of the BHN across the the given lot of bullets from up or down a point of BHN to a very consistent 19 BHN.

Survivors from the meltdown continued to gain BHN over the course of 48 hours. It looks like the are going to come to rest at 29 BHN. This is what I had hoped to see as I believe it will be quite useful for use with my 300 Sav & 308 Win bullets. Getting bullets there is not an easy thing I've found out.

With 25° of wiggle room between the required heating and the melt is tough to achieve. Mainly, this week has been spent with my little convection oven and learning what it can do. The oven is capable of maintaining a 10° spread in temperature but there is also a 10° temperature loss toward the front of the oven because of the door. So, what has to be maintained is a minimum temperature of 440° at the front, which is 450° at the back but when the heat cycles on the back of the oven goes to 460° which gives me 3° of error from the loss of a lot of work. I laid my welding gloves across the top seam of the oven door and that seemed to help.

The next big obstacle is keeping the bullets standing. If a bullet is on its side, it is lost. I had them slightly spaced in the trays but I just reread the primary text I'm using and it said to group them together to help stabilize them. I missed that in the half dozen readings and will given that a try. The bullets are also sized and gas checked. In every lot that I've heated, somewhere between 350° & 400° I have had at least one gas check pop off and the upset has caused a domino effect. I'm not upset about loosing the bullet with the gas check issue as it was probably going to be a flyer but I don't like the loss of the innocents!

I think I'm also damaging some bullets by dumping them into the cold water. They are soft, near melting and they go crashing into each other. In that my pans have sides that are higher than the bullets, I'm thinking of taking the pan out of the oven and pouring the water in from two corners to flood the pan.

The last pan of 308 Win bullets that I took out a bit ago actually melted with the movement of going from the oven to the water. They hit the water as a sheet of lead!

This has ended up more of a blog than a forum discussion and I apologise for that. Describing what has been happening has actually helped me a bit as my intent was to set down an order a 1,000 jacketed bullets for both the 300 Sav & 308 Win and call it quits. Instead, I decided to think all this out in text which has caused me to give it another try using what has worked so far.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by 62chevy »

RD that cheap Black and Decker is never going to do what you want without a PID. Dave has a wonderful thread on here on how to make one. Maybe if you ask nice he will make you one.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by GasGuzzler »

Sounds like my experiences. Don't waste your time but I would like to know what the softies do if dropped on concrete....the ones that look like they're close to melting at 400-450. Do they splat or do they explode?

I have PID experience. I don't think I need to build another for my oven because it's a POS and I don't need it.

Have you tried convection? Should be more even.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part II

Post by Ranch Dog »

62chevy wrote:RD that cheap Black and Decker is never going to do what you want without a PID. Dave has a wonderful thread on here on how to make one. Maybe if you ask nice he will make you one.
Will it keep the temperature within 10°? At this point for any additional time or money it would need to keep the entire oven, front, back, and sides with 10°.
GasGuzzler wrote:Have you tried convection? Should be more even.
It is a convection oven.
Ranch Dog wrote:This has ended up more of a blog than a forum discussion and I apologise for that. Describing what has been happening has actually helped me a bit as my intent was to set down an order a 1,000 jacketed bullets for both the 300 Sav & 308 Win and call it quits.
I did come back in and ordered an assortment of 1,000 bullets for my 300 Savage, the Savage 340 30-30, the 308 Win, and by Mini-30. I've months of pasture work ahead of me and I've already wasted four complete days working on this project. I will get back to it in bits and pieces but when I do have the available time I need to work on levergun and pistol bullets that I have down pat.
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