Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

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Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by GasGuzzler »

Hadn't loaded must cast 9mm if at all although I have a Lee mold.....but today in process of some recently once-fireds I shot from OEM box through the Shield, I found them too small ID at the mouth. How? Well I've never trimmed 9mm but I have the Lee trimmer so since the brass was already de-capped and clean I went that way. Stuck the first case on the Lee trimmer. Got calipers out and the brass is at .350-.351 ID at the mouth. I looked at Lee's book and my Hornady books.....plus SAMI specs on the web. Doesn't seem right to me. Added some Imperial and tried a few through the same die, no resistance, no change. Put them in a steel RCBS .38S die, same thing. They're too small now. Yes, I have the proper NOE expander plug I got from RD (I think) but??

Just call Lee and send the individual die back OR am I missing something? I'm guessing I never noticed because I generally load plated for 9mm and have never trimmed 9mm.....
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by Ranch Dog »

Quick question, What is the average length of your cases? The 9mm is a tapered case so the longer it is, the smaller ID of the mouth would be.

I just sent a couple of SAAMI length cases (.754") through my 9mm Luger Load-Master and the ID of the mouth was .352". I used pin gauges to determine the ID. If your cases are long, that will push them to the smaller diameter. If your cases are .754" or less, I would say that you need to talk to Lee about a replacement die.

As a note, I use a .357 bullet, and the Lee Powder Through Expander Die does a wonderful job of flaring the case to accept the bullet.
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by farmerjim »

In 10's of thousands of 9 mm,n I have never trimmed a single case. I use a lyman M die, or NOE expander plug to open and flair the case mouth to receive a lee 358-125 RF bullet sized .357. ( case expanded to .355 ID ). Never had a single problem with it. If loading jacketed HP, I eliminate this step.
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by RBHarter »

My 9mm dies have a 38/357 expander plug . All of the carbide dies over size as far as I've seen . Out of the sizer I would expect .350-352 and with an expander for jacketed I'd expect .353-354 as an absolute maximum .

Neck tension is generally .002-3 under normal diameter of the bullet . Generically the 9mm is speced at .356 with individual specimens ranging from .355-358 . A little curse of do more with less . Make a tool for rifle bbls at .359 sharpen it twice then use it for 38/357 for 3 more sharpenings then for the last 2 9mm . Add heat to running to fast for the tools .....
Anyway you have dies that have to make ammo to hold a .355 bullet in a minimum last cut chamber with a cold tool in a hot bbl . Add cast into it to fit a .358 bbl , the bullet should be about .359-360 . It's almost like loading a different cartridge with make do dies .

For your cast delima in RCBS dies email them for a 38/357 cowboy expander it will probably give you a an ID about .356-7 that could be lapped down to ideal .
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by GasGuzzler »

I might ignore it then. I have the powder through due and the NOE expander.
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by farmerjim »

I have never been able to get the lee 9 mm powder through die to work with the auto drum. It will over flair the case. It will work with the lee auto disk.
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by Ranch Dog »

farmerjim wrote:I have never been able to get the lee 9 mm powder through die to work with the auto drum. It will over flair the case. It will work with the lee auto disk.
Yikes, I just bought five of them specifically for my progressives.... My three original Load-Masters plus I gained a Load-Master that I bought from RB and the Automator... I will be right back!
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by Ranch Dog »

I haven't been working with pistol cartridge, only rifles being prepped for the hunting season, so I went out and installed an Auto Drum on my 9mm Luger press. I didn't adjust the Powder Through Expander Die; I used it as it was adjusted for the Auto Disk. That adjustment, with my .002" to .003" over jacketed bullet spec, is with the die making shell plate contact. This is the same with the 25 Auto, 32 Auto, 380 Auto, 9mm Luger, 9mm Makarov, and 45 Auto. With the Auto Drum setup, took a minute, I ran a case through the press.
ADrum_progressive_PTED.jpg
It's about as perfect as it gets. I had the opportunity to talk with the Lee guy that designs these things when I called about custom plugs, and I found out quite a bit about how they are designed. I also learned that the PTE plug is fixed and that if you are not obtaining the flare that you need for your bullet, it is the die body that needs to be adjusted. The over-flare is fairly easy to fix as they can grind down the south end of the die (I think they said they charge $10 for this work). If you are not getting enough, they need to make a new body as was the case with my 32 Auto application. There is a bit more to it than this, but this sums it up.

The instructions, I included them below for anyone setting up the die, starts with the die one turn off the shell holder/plate contact which the fellow told me should be about perfect for a spec jacketed bullet. The instructions also state that the plug travels about 3/8" inside the die which means that the plug has approximately 5¼ turns of adjustment as each turn of the die body is .071". With the instructions stating that the die body be one turn off the shell holder/plate, the math indicates that there are about four turns of adjustment on the other side to correct an over flare. Some of that range would be needed to increase spring tension for manipulation of the actuator but not much. Have you tried adjusting the die that far out?
Handgun_PTED.jpg
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by Ranch Dog »

What is weird is that in another topic I had mentioned that I had gotten the Auto Drum setup down to a science when setting it up with either the Long or Short Rifle Charging Die by setting it up 5½ turns out after case mouth contact. Since making that claim, I have found 5¼ turns out to be more ideal. Didn't think about it until after figuring out the range of adjustment of the Powder Through Expander Plugs above. It makes sense that the pistol and rifle dies would need to operate over the same range so the spring action be the same.
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Re: Lee Carbide 9mm Over-sizes Undersized?

Post by farmerjim »

Glad you got yours to work. I could get mine to work on other calibers, but not the 9mm.
Here is a thread I started on it,
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1304

I finally turned down the powder through die and did the flaring with an M die. I have loaded about 9K this way without a problem, I load pre primed ( hand primer ) cases , so I only need 4 stations.
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