Powder Through Expander Dies ~ 32 Auto

[Ranch Dog]

Spoke with a fellow at Lee yesterday concerning my 32 Auto Powder Through Expander Die, more specifically about the flaring plug being too short to provide the necessary opening for a .314" bullet. As always it was a very interesting conversation.

The problem that I'm having is that with the PTE Die bottomed out against the shell plate, there is little if any flair. There is enough to get a .314" bullet seated by hand but this has to be done carefully to keep the bullet concentric with the case. The bullet diameter isn't really the problem as the SAAMI spec for 32 Auto bullets is .3125" ~ .3185"; nor, is it specifically Lee's issue with their plug. The problem is with the brass, I know that I have never seen a piece of brass that is at the SAAMI case length of .680". I've always considered myself lucky if they are within the minimum length spec of .660". I have thousands of cases and here are the average lengths and capacities by brand.

32Auto_Brass.jpg

So here is the problem that I brought to Lee to solve at my expense through a special order. I need a flaring plug that fits the reality of the brass length that I use. I have also used RP & S&B plus a few others and never have I seen a .660" case let alone a .680". Starline is now offering the brass but it was not available while I was buying thousands of cases to feed my three 32 Autos. I really doubt that I will ever need more brass so probably will never get to look at the Starline product.

The conversation was interesting because the fellow went into how the plugs were designed against the spec but the interesting thing is that I had never heard what flare is used. All the Lee plugs use a 5° flare.

The name of the die is a bit of a misnomer as it only flares the case, it really doesn't expanded the case other than to get a bit of purchase inside the case to stabilize the plug within the die. In that it is not an expander, this is why you might see a bulge in the case in the area of the bullet base. Sticking strictly with Lee products, the only way to eliminate that is with slightly oversized sizing dies. That can get expensive and typically helps you determine if the cosmetics are really worth it. If the bulge produces a chambering issue, then it is something you must deal with through a special order oversized sizing die.

A fellow posted this video on my Rossi forum and it does a great job of explaining flaring and expanding dies. It never mentions the Lee products but remember that they are actually flaring tools, even the Universal Case Expander. The video will redirect to a new window when clicked.

[BBvideo 560,340]<iframe width="560" height="340" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pcc91NArteQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/BBvideo]

[daboone]

Excellent video, Thank You!

I did realize the Lee PTE and "Universal Expander" just flared. I didn't realize that some expanders do a 2 step expansion and then a flare.

What is the cost of the custom expander Lee is making for you? I'd like to order one if affordable for the 32acp, 9x18 Mak and 32spl.

[GasGuzzler]

This brings up again an experiment I tried (and failed) when I first started loading. Hmmmm.....

[Ohio3Wheels]

The only cases that I currently use an expander on are the 40-65 and the 45-70. I got Track of the Wolf expanders that fit the Lee 45-70 PTE die along with a couple of extra die bodies. Also bought their powder compressor plugs for the same die bodies. These quite well for my purpose and they will slightly bell the case mouth to aid in straight seating. Since these get loaded on the single stage using a separate die is no big deal for me. I would like some true expanders for at least 45 Colt and 357 mag and will take a look at NOE's offerings .
Make smoke,

[Ranch Dog]

What is the cost of the custom expander Lee is making for you? I'd like to order one if affordable for the 32acp, 9x18 Mak and 32spl.

I'm not sure yet concerning the cost of the 32 Auto Flaring Plug (not expander). Again, the only reason the plug doesn't work with the stock plug is that the cases are so short. I haven't setup the 9mm Mak on the Load-Master yet but so far I have not had issue with it on the Turret as all the Starline brass has been the at the SAAMI spec length. My my interest in flaring vs. expanding is for use with the bullet feeder. Case need a flare for that to work.

What I would recommend for the 32 Win Spl is a Custom Oversized EZ X Expander. The SAAMI spec for it is a .319 ~ .322" bullet. These expanders seem to need about .001" over the bullet size you will need. The stock expander in the die, is .320" so you would add the over to it. For instance, I shoot a .323" bullet in my 32 Win Spl so I ordered an oversized expander that was .004" over. With bottlenecked cartridges, I prefer to keep the expander with the die rather than take it an additional die.

The caused me to go to Lee and order two oversized plugs that I have been meaning to order. I ran them out of stock! My bad!

[Ranch Dog]

I would like some true expanders for at least 45 Colt and 357 mag and will take a look at NOE's offerings .

My revolver cartridge carbines; 357 Mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, and 480 Ruger, I treat like rifles and expand the cartridge with the NOE plugs vs. flaring the mouth. When NOE first introduced the expanders there was a complete line of them but the inventory is hit or miss now.

[Ranch Dog]

Might split the rifle stuff out into that forum. Let's see where it goes.

[Ranch Dog]

What is the cost of the custom expander Lee is making for you? I'd like to order one if affordable for the 32acp, 9x18 Mak and 32spl.

I'm not sure yet concerning the cost of the 32 Auto Flaring Plug (not expander). Again, the only reason the plug doesn't work with the stock plug is that the cases are so short. I haven't setup the 9mm Mak on the Load-Master yet but so far I have not had issue with it on the Turret as all the Starline brass has been the at the SAAMI spec length. My my interest in flaring vs. expanding is for use with the bullet feeder. Case need a flare for that to work.

A fellow from Lee called me today to tell me what they figured out concerning the lack of flare on the shorter than spec brass. A shorter expander plug would not cure it, the die must be shorter. I could send in my Powder Through Expander Die and they will mill it down the required amount for $10 or I could just but a new die from them and have it milled down. I took the second choice as I would like to keep a standard die so hopefully, the correct flare will put the bullet feeder back in business for the 32 Auto.

[Ranch Dog]

I received the shorter PTED today! My 32 Auto cases are now receiving the full form of the 5° flare! I had made an assumption that the industry norm of 32 Auto cases was not meeting the SAAMI length spec was causing the case not to be flared enough in the die, and that was causing the bullet feeder to fail. Well, I happy to report that my homework was correct! The die custom die was mounted on station #3, and I went right to work loading dummy cartridges with just the bullet. My TL314-75-RF bullets had been dusted with mica to make them slick, and they feed right on through! I stopped after ten are so, not a hiccup among them!

pted_custom_32Auto_01.jpg

pted_custom_32Auto_02.jpg

I had also placed a 7/16" ball bearing in the Bullet Seating Die and readjusted it against a loaded cartridge, plenty of adjustment range now!

It is crazy how I have these three Load-Masters dancing to my tune instead of the other way around, and I have not done any mods, I've just payed close attention to many small details. I've also gotten to the point that I don't think there is anything wrong with the primer system if you are using the latest assemblies. When working with the primer pocket prep tools, it is easy to see and feel just how crappy pistol case pockets are. I don't know what Lee could to do to ensure feed of such sorry components. If a reloader doesn't want to do the prep work but wants to try priming on the Load-Master, my recommendation would be to use Starline brass. They must be the only manufacturer that knows or possibly cares about making a spec pocket. The pocket beveling with a reamer works.

No doubt working with the 32 Auto has been a good exercise. The small cases and bullets have required attention to the small details. The setup has been provided great lessons and has made me confident the Load-Master can run as a full progressive press! I suspect that the 25 Auto is going to teach me a bit more although I won't be using the bullet seater.