Lee Loader

mr surveyor wrote:are you going to add gas checks and tumble lube?

They are lubed JD, I will just snap a gas check on them and run them through a Lee .311" sizer.

yeah, I see they're lubed in the lube groove but I thought you also added a coat of LLA on the bearing surface. I started doing that shortly after getting into re-loading with all the commercial (pre-lubed) bullets I loaded. Still wipe the lube off the bullet nose before running it through the seating die (slow process sometimes) but it has always seemed to make a difference for me in accuracy and consistency - particularly in the lever guns.

jd

well, I have to add an update to the documentation of my cast 30-30 loading journey. RD knows of my new addiction as he's been THE enabler to lead me down the path .... but it's a great ride.

The heavies and higher hunting velocity are still my number one goal to make work to the fullest in my old 336, but I also know I need to concentrate on the basics first. That way it's maybe just a few minor bumps and bruises in the learning curve rather than broken bones by jumping out too fast. My local buddy that's a novice lead caster had decided to give up on the 30-30 and quit casting them. I believe it's the Lee C309-150F mold he was using and his bullets with gas checks came out finished around 142 gr average and .309 -.3095 dia. They also tend to have 10-15% that will still shoot through the tube, but being OCD myself, I'd have tossed them back into the pot. Regardless, he traded me his last 180 of them as he had no other use for them other than re-use as casting lead. As a beginner at the cast bullet in a bottle necked case - and microgroove barrel - I figured the best use for them would be low velocity loads and pistol powder. So, yesterday I had some time to spend at the bench and noticed I had a few pieces of sized/primed (but not completely trimmed) that had been occupying a plastic box for several years. I had tried the 9.0 gr of Unique load with them a week or so with a limited few through the chrony with surprising results and decided to load a small batch to use up the untrimmed brass for grins.

Had the chance late this afternoon to take them to the range and put them all (only 11) through the chrony at a 50 yard target ... well, two targets - one 5 rounds and the other 6 rounds. Again, it produced surprising results for me. The 11 shots through the chrony averaged 1454 fps with extreme spread 49 fps, and a nice circular pattern (considering spread of both targets) of 1.0". Granted, it was only 50 yards, but they do seem to be consistent. I've now shot about 50 rounds of those lightweights with both Unique and A2400, and every single group has been in the 0.8 - 1.1" size range (50 yards).

I have experienced more leading with these apparently "undersized" (diameter) bullets than with the heavier 170+ gr, .310+ dia bullets (shooting much slower rifle powders), but it only takes a bit more cleaning than I consider normal.

One good thing, this whole experience has caused me to put more effort into proper length trimming of all my 30-30 brass and concentrate a bit more on prepping the case mouth to accept cast bullets.

This being my only experience with cast bullets in bottle necked cases, it's taught me that its a whole lot like loading cast in straight walled handgun brass .... but isn't nearly the same. Kinda like the old adage about tomatoes being a fruit, but I still ain't puttin' tomatoes in a fruit salad.

just rambling

jd

The good thing about lead bullets is that there is always something to do! You might want to put Shooter's Choice Lead Remover on your shopping list. It will make lead removal a very short work. I've tried all kinds of things over the years, it beats anything.

Now that I've had supper and a couple of beers, maybe I'll remember how to post a pic now.....
that's one of several targets of the same load .... all look nearly identical. Still needs a bit of improvement.

Since I've finally run through an old batch of brass that wasn't well trimmed (but already sized and primed), I'll break down and use properly trimmed and prepped brass and see if those loads don't show better stats and better targets. Being as light as the bullets are, I'm guessing the groups would open up disproportionately at 100 yards ... but that's just a guess. These homespun, somewhat inferior, lightweight cast bullets and pistol powder are giving me the experience I need with cast/bottle neck loads to gain the necessary confidence to work with the heavies and rifle powder.

jd

Well done JD, good load work, and shooting.

I did receive the Hunter Supply 31-154-FN from MidwayUSA. I had a feeling that this design was the RCBS 31-154-FN and I'm certain of it now.



Hunter Supply uses hardball which is 16 BHN so the delivered product must be receiving some type of treatment as the BHN is 21. With the gas check installed it weighs 159-grains.



I will get it on the short list for testing. The bullet would cost about 20¢ with the gas checks and the cost of the Lee .311 Sizer being amortized over the 1K of checks.

JD, I was searching my LoadData.com subscription for over SAAMI spec pressure 35 Rem loads and found them. Those listed loads are referenced to Handloader #98 for the complete source material, so I bought this July-August 1982 back issue.

As I thumbed through the magazine, low and behold, is an article titled "Cast Bullets in Marlins once more!" by Al Miller, a Technical Editor for the magazine. In the first paragraph he states:

Al Miller wrote:These experiments have confirmed two facts: first, that cast bullets can be driven just as hard and just as accurately from multi-groove rifling as they can from conventional rifling; and second, that the area of a bullet's bearing surface has a significant influence on its accuracy from a multi-groove barrel - much more than is the case with jacketed bullets.

What adds interest is that he is comparing performance between jacket and cast, and among the three cast bullet molds he is using, the RCBS 30-150 is giving him the best results. That is the design that I think the Hunter Supply 31-154-FNs are dropped from.

In his shooting, the cast RCBS 150-grain went head to head with the Hornady 150-grain round nose in velocity (2350 FPS) with several different powders but shooting tighter groups. His hypothesis concerning bearing surface was not supported as the RCBS's bearing surface is in the middle of the three cast bullets tested. Puzzled by this, I was interested to read what he had to say about that. At the end of the article, he blew it off, saying that his theory needed more testing.

thanks for posting the Al Miller information.

In comparing cast to jacketed bullets, his hypothesis of bullet bearing surface and accuracy from a "multi-groove" barrel still seems somewhat plausible. My thought to add though is that the width/number of lube grooves could affect aerodynamics/ballistics and tend to have a large influence on the actual bearing surface "area" of the bullet itself.

Sure is a lot to consider, isn't it?


jd

JD I cast all my own 30-30 bullet so buying online has never been a option and I know nothing about this guy but it might be worth looking into, prices are good and sizing is an option as well. http://www.thecastbulletshop.com/30-caliber-rifle-17

I just recently picked up an Arsenal mold that is similar to the RD .311" 170 gr. FN but with traditional lube groove the mold also has a 50/50 option as I got two cavities with gas check as two in plain base since I shoot a lot of plinker loads in an under the 1400 fps. range. I cast up a batch of bullets a few weeks ago and got them coated up over the weekend to load and test out. I sized mine to .311" with and without gas checks. I like 7 to 8 grs. of Allaint Red Dot for the plinker loads and 28 to 30 grs. of H-335 for full house hunting loads but I have some other powder I want to try with the new bullet.

Here is a target I usually get on average with my old Lee 170 gr. FN bullet sized to .310 tumble lubed with the gas check left off at 50 yds. with 7.0 grs. of Red Dot.


The plain base version as cast.


After coating sized and ready to load.

mr surveyor wrote:Sure is a lot to consider, isn't it?

Sometimes it is best not to over think it and just see how they shoot.

One of the things that I do not like about the Hunter Supply bullet is the bore rider nose. This feature on a generic bullet usually makes bore to ogive contact a guess. I prefer a traditional tangent ogive so that positive bore to ogive contact can be established or at least, just off of contact to allow for very slight differences in the cast product. Reloader762's bullets are an example of the nose profile I favor.

I spent all of Sunday working with the 31-154-FN at jacketed pressures and velocities and initially had good results between 2200 and 2300 FPS. I was working with LVR and at 34.5-grains had a three-shot group at 100 yards that was less than 1.5" using my Savage 170B. I decided to push it hard to see where the groups started to fail and it was immediately after. I cleaned the barrel up but could never return to the accuracy I saw with the 34.5-grains. It started to get frustrating, so I quit for the day. I will work some more with it and keep you posted.