Quenching bullets

[Steve]

I have read that people quench bullets by dropping them from the molds into water to make them harder. Does that work? Got any tips about doing it?

Thanks

[Chickenthief]

If the bullet contains arsenic and/or antimony it will harden when quenched. Bear in mind that they will age soften again within a few weeks.

Take a bucket 1-2/3 full of cold water added ice wont be bad. Take an old T-shirt and cut front from back and secure one half to the top of the barrel with a bungy. Let the T-shirt sack and cut a 2-3" cut in the center.
Flip bullets onto T-shirt and they should tumble through the hole and end in the water without splashing.

Heat treating and water quenching. This age hardening of antimony containing alloys can be accelerated at higher temperatures, i.e. heat treating the bullets. This is most commonly done by sizing the bullets first (since lead alloys work soften, and hence sizing would negate a significant portion of the hardness imparted by the heat treating process) then heating them to about 450° F in the oven and quenching by dumping them in cold water. The hardened bullets are then lubed using the same sizing die that was used before (so that no actual sizing takes place). Done in this manner, bullets cast with an alloy containing 5% antimony, 0.5% tin and 0.17% arsenic, which would normally have a Brinnell hardness of a little over 16 (after aging for 6 days), can be hardened to a BHN of over 35 (see Dennis Marshall‘s chapter “Stronger Bullets with Less Alloying“ in “Cast Bullets” published by the NRA). Notice that this alloy is not tremendously different from the common wheelweight. Much the same sort of result can be obtained by casting with a hot mould and water quenching directly (place a towel over the water bucket with a 4“ slot cut in it to contain the splashes). Mould temperature is critical for maximum effective hardness. Bullets water quenched from a “cool” mould (i.e. one from which the bullets were smooth and shiny) were found to be similar to air-cooled bullets. But bullets dropped from a mould that was “hot” (i.e. hot enough that the bullets were frosty over their entire surface) were found to have BHN of over 30 when water quenched. In a separate study, such a mould was found to have temperature of 430° F, very similar to the optimum oven temperature found in the heat treatment study (ca. 450° F). I don’t normally cast quite this hot, but even so, water-quenching WW alloy routinely gives me bullets with a Brinnell hardness of 18. One of the advantages of hardening bullets in this manner, as opposed to using linotype to make them hard, is that they are tougher and not as likely to shear or fragment on impact.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter ... llurgy.htm
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[Steve]

Thanks chickenthief. That's an interesting and helpful read.

[mikld]

Chickenthief hit it 100%. Early on in my casting I tried water dropping, but soon tired of the process. I have been able to get my 10-15 BHN bullets to shoot without leading so I have no need to water drop...

[RBHarter]

I WC most of my rifle boolits . Every 1 I cast is cast to hunt with so it use an alloy of 75 25 WW - 1-20. While it would be more accurate to heat treat in an oven and cool the whole batch ay once rather than individual drops it has worked well for me . I haven't seen the age softening to a large degree . The fresh pour/cooled will bounce up to about 18 bhn then back to 16 in a few days where at best the alloy air cooled hovers around 12 after weeks on winter pours and a little softer ,over 10 from summer pours .

The alloy allows me to have a hard enough cast to reach the speeds and pressures needed while keeping the ability to expand in 27,28,30,32 and 35 cal above that the hole seems to do the job by itself and for me is into BP .

To answer directly it works for me and is very easy and effective.

[Chickenthief]

I WC most of my rifle boolits . Every 1 I cast is cast to hunt with so it use an alloy of 75 25 WW - 1-20. While it would be more accurate to heat treat in an oven and cool the whole batch ay once rather than individual drops it has worked well for me . I haven't seen the age softening to a large degree . The fresh pour/cooled will bounce up to about 18 bhn then back to 16 in a few days where at best the alloy air cooled hovers around 12 after weeks on winter pours and a little softer ,over 10 from summer pours .

The alloy allows me to have a hard enough cast to reach the speeds and pressures needed while keeping the ability to expand in 27,28,30,32 and 35 cal above that the hole seems to do the job by itself and for me is into BP .

To answer directly it works for me and is very easy and effective.

Ponder this: Lead alloys work soften!
So when you want a hard bullet is is the surface layer dealing with rifling forces, but at the time the bullet enters the barrel it will work soften, but fast enough to become softer or what?

A knowledgeable man said that much more than +2% tin and + 2% antimony and bullets will tend to not expand properly at all (disregard bones here).

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter ... tingCB.htm

[Chickenthief]

Bear in mind the "internet fallacy" called hydrostatic shock!
How can something mowing faster than ie. 800fps be called static?
Hydrodynamic shock is the proper term.

500lbs sitting on your chest is a (hydro)static chock., ie. the shock is static (not moving). If shes passenger in a car passing you and slap you silly then it's (hydro)dynamic shock.

[Chickenthief]

Oh and if it really wanted to be a true hydro shock it need to be faster than the speed of sound in water (bodily fluids). So an impact speed of min. 4650fps is called for(you wish!)

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound ... d_598.html

Come on, how many have experienced or heard of near sonic booms? They're not there! Near score is also going home alone?

[mr surveyor]

Interesting analogies there, Chickenthief

I think I understood most of it, but I don't have enough international exposure to be sure


jd

[RBHarter]

All I need is a boolit rigid enough to exit the muzzle at 2200 fps expand a little bit without shattering breaking up or otherwise becoming smaller pieces . The above method allows me to do this with good enough accuracy and delivers a boolit that will at over 900 ftlb poke a hole through 1/4 plate steel . I haven't delivered them to wet pack paper ,water bottles, milk jugs etc to ensure that they are not disintegrating as of yet . The alloy did however at 1800 fps with an impact velocity over 1700 fps a 200 gr 30 cal opened to .650-.680 with a light weight of 178 gr . So I guess that while the engineering says it won't work the mechanics have fixed the problem.

The speed of sound is generally set at 1100 fps but is known as 666.739 knots at 59 degrees Fahrenheit, 50% humidity at 29.92 inches of mercury .

Hydrostatic is a reference to a wave of movement through an otherwise stationery semi liquid.

At this point we could also haggle over nose shape, expansion ,and what happens inside of the hair/fabric boundary , energy transfer and whether 2 holes are wasted energy or not.

I think that using chickens numbers it is impossible to generate dynamic or static shock with any of the "normal" rifle cartridges from .17 to 16 inch . I have no idea what it is called that behaves in a wave like manner and creates tissue disruption but that is what is generally refered to as hydrostatic shock .

A knot is 1.15 statute miles and 29.92 inches of mercury is 14.7 psi .
Nevada requires 1000 ftlb@100 yd and and expanding type bullet for big game in rifles and a minimum of 22 cal and a 2" oal . It requires a minimum cal of 24 and a minimum case length of 1.28 inches for pistols . So that is the goal of every load . Whether it is in a relic small bore like the 30-30 or 30-40 or 6mm LE or a Ruger load in a 45-120-500 . After some digging I've found a whole slew of cartridges for pistols that should be allowed but aren't and even more that are that shouldn't be . The 256 Winchester comes to mind 1st,followed by the 10mm on the other side.

OK I wand er red off there a little.