A Colts carbine saga .
Posted: 25 Aug 2016 11:12
This is a complex story ,so if you nod off I understand completely.
Many years ago I owned a Marlin 1895C in 38/357 and it shot everything the old S&W M10 and Ruger Sec 6 shot well even better and 400fps faster . It did this out as far as I ever tried to shoot it ........it would appear that it was unique and I was just lucky.
2013 February .
After 10 yr of " are there never any 45 Colts rifles around when I have money " it all came together. A brand new shiny Braztec M92' 16" . I asked if there was perhaps another with more bbl and learned that the Browning sister with 20" was $200 more than I was willing to pay and nearly 500 more than the Rosschester I took home .
My lay off road trek adventures were to start in a few days so I didn't get to fool with it but just loaded 100 Colts classic with 452-252 SWC and the 452-255 RNFP and grabbed the BlackHawk hunting loads and I was off with plans to meet Ms at hog camp .
I shot the rifle the 1st time at another forum Rondy and with a sight bump the Colts deference loads were good to go . I banged all the steel , it was all under 75 yd but I was shooting a zero round count strange to me gun off hand and thrilled to be drilling the little 6" plates .
I get to hog camp a month later and slap the Ruger start loads with the huge SWC in it and check the sights ......... 5 rounds in a 2ft arc a foot off the bull........ The deference loads loads shot 2" and I figured that at 800 from the 7.5" Ruger I should get over 1100 fps so that would do. It did 3x from powder burn to 47 yd .
Back home I loaded up several different loads and found that the 252 just wasn't going to play well . As good fortune would have it a 454424 Lyman fell in my lap and it shot very well in in the rifle and as well as I do in the Ruger .
We had tags so the handy little carbine got shelved until hog camp was coming up along with 2 spring shoots . The shoots found me using up the pistol odds and ends to empty boxes and brass to clean up the shelves . I had about a 75 yd hog shot on a pretty good pig but missed blaming my blind mate for leaving me in the dark .
At the 2nd spring shoot I found that at 75 yd my groups just weren't what they should be but my shooting was off also , you know good days and bad days ,it was a horrible weekend .
2016
Hogs died at the business end of the little carbine and the new to us 20" as well.
At the 2nd spring shoot it was hot , but so was I . So I boldly stepped up to the Mystery range target and played the Ky windage and the shots were going bizarrely high at what would turn out to be 197 yd . I moved to the 400yd berm ,what the heck I've got like 4ft of free hold over .... Shots were unmarkable .
I went back to the 100 yd range and borrowed a rest . 25,50 were little clusters , not match grade but well inside 3" . At 75 yd even palmed on a sand bag teacup saucers were in a lot of trouble . At about 78 yd everything goes sideways and the results are the same in both rifles . Well that was the 1st weekend June it took me until late July to not be cussing every time I thought about them .
Apparently the Marlin 38/357 has a faster twist like 1-16 and being only a 357 diameter and starting out at almost 1600 fps has something to do with being able to hit an 8" plate at 325 yd .
Back to the Colts 1300 fps is as good as it gets and .14-.18 BC don't help . According to the Strelok app and live Chrony numbers 1150 fps hits at about 70 yd and so by 80 yd the bullets are in full curve ball tumble .
Why did the deference loads shoot ? Because they were never super sonic and as it turns out only just into the fringe from the 20" bbl . The supersonic loads would shoot better if the twist were say 1-20 but it is 1-30 so we do what we have to work with .
The solution is to push the aerodynamics or the rifling to its limits . Those familiar with large caliber know that some things just can't happen to a 45 cal bullet. Like a spire point under 350 gr and of course the Colts low pressure rating helps (sarcasm) .
I was gifted a 458-340 RNFP . It drops at 353 gr from my pistol alloy . Now data is nonexistent for anything over 325 . So I adopted if it's too slow to burn 100% you can't blow it up . ......... A fellow elsewhere took my numbers and ran my powders through Quick Load also . Turns out I was on the right track ....... Rather ironic that s super heavyweight Colts could end up shooting the same load and powder as the 6.8 Rem in an AR.....
This is still under investigation but I may be able to get over 1000 fps with the 353gr bullet keep it stable and be under the Colts maximum pressure . The current work up has round holes at 25 yd but was well under the 100% load and without the Chrony numbers 600 fps is only a guess.
At the end if all of the numbers hold up I should be able to shoot a 100 yd group group with either of the rifles ,which is actually all I wanted anyway , and have a real bone crusher as a bonus .
Stay tuned for more .
Many years ago I owned a Marlin 1895C in 38/357 and it shot everything the old S&W M10 and Ruger Sec 6 shot well even better and 400fps faster . It did this out as far as I ever tried to shoot it ........it would appear that it was unique and I was just lucky.
2013 February .
After 10 yr of " are there never any 45 Colts rifles around when I have money " it all came together. A brand new shiny Braztec M92' 16" . I asked if there was perhaps another with more bbl and learned that the Browning sister with 20" was $200 more than I was willing to pay and nearly 500 more than the Rosschester I took home .
My lay off road trek adventures were to start in a few days so I didn't get to fool with it but just loaded 100 Colts classic with 452-252 SWC and the 452-255 RNFP and grabbed the BlackHawk hunting loads and I was off with plans to meet Ms at hog camp .
I shot the rifle the 1st time at another forum Rondy and with a sight bump the Colts deference loads were good to go . I banged all the steel , it was all under 75 yd but I was shooting a zero round count strange to me gun off hand and thrilled to be drilling the little 6" plates .
I get to hog camp a month later and slap the Ruger start loads with the huge SWC in it and check the sights ......... 5 rounds in a 2ft arc a foot off the bull........ The deference loads loads shot 2" and I figured that at 800 from the 7.5" Ruger I should get over 1100 fps so that would do. It did 3x from powder burn to 47 yd .
Back home I loaded up several different loads and found that the 252 just wasn't going to play well . As good fortune would have it a 454424 Lyman fell in my lap and it shot very well in in the rifle and as well as I do in the Ruger .
We had tags so the handy little carbine got shelved until hog camp was coming up along with 2 spring shoots . The shoots found me using up the pistol odds and ends to empty boxes and brass to clean up the shelves . I had about a 75 yd hog shot on a pretty good pig but missed blaming my blind mate for leaving me in the dark .
At the 2nd spring shoot I found that at 75 yd my groups just weren't what they should be but my shooting was off also , you know good days and bad days ,it was a horrible weekend .
2016
Hogs died at the business end of the little carbine and the new to us 20" as well.
At the 2nd spring shoot it was hot , but so was I . So I boldly stepped up to the Mystery range target and played the Ky windage and the shots were going bizarrely high at what would turn out to be 197 yd . I moved to the 400yd berm ,what the heck I've got like 4ft of free hold over .... Shots were unmarkable .
I went back to the 100 yd range and borrowed a rest . 25,50 were little clusters , not match grade but well inside 3" . At 75 yd even palmed on a sand bag teacup saucers were in a lot of trouble . At about 78 yd everything goes sideways and the results are the same in both rifles . Well that was the 1st weekend June it took me until late July to not be cussing every time I thought about them .
Apparently the Marlin 38/357 has a faster twist like 1-16 and being only a 357 diameter and starting out at almost 1600 fps has something to do with being able to hit an 8" plate at 325 yd .
Back to the Colts 1300 fps is as good as it gets and .14-.18 BC don't help . According to the Strelok app and live Chrony numbers 1150 fps hits at about 70 yd and so by 80 yd the bullets are in full curve ball tumble .
Why did the deference loads shoot ? Because they were never super sonic and as it turns out only just into the fringe from the 20" bbl . The supersonic loads would shoot better if the twist were say 1-20 but it is 1-30 so we do what we have to work with .
The solution is to push the aerodynamics or the rifling to its limits . Those familiar with large caliber know that some things just can't happen to a 45 cal bullet. Like a spire point under 350 gr and of course the Colts low pressure rating helps (sarcasm) .
I was gifted a 458-340 RNFP . It drops at 353 gr from my pistol alloy . Now data is nonexistent for anything over 325 . So I adopted if it's too slow to burn 100% you can't blow it up . ......... A fellow elsewhere took my numbers and ran my powders through Quick Load also . Turns out I was on the right track ....... Rather ironic that s super heavyweight Colts could end up shooting the same load and powder as the 6.8 Rem in an AR.....
This is still under investigation but I may be able to get over 1000 fps with the 353gr bullet keep it stable and be under the Colts maximum pressure . The current work up has round holes at 25 yd but was well under the 100% load and without the Chrony numbers 600 fps is only a guess.
At the end if all of the numbers hold up I should be able to shoot a 100 yd group group with either of the rifles ,which is actually all I wanted anyway , and have a real bone crusher as a bonus .
Stay tuned for more .