Red/black and old-style dipper interchangeability in Loaders

[J..]

Greetings;

As of late, I've come into some old oddball sets of Lee Loaders that were, for one reason or another, missing the powder dippers. While I have an extensive(!) amount of copies of old Lee Loader data sheets, I decided it was time to put together a resource on which dippers went with what set.

As I was putting together this data, I noticed some useful things. In the Lee Loaders, there are three generations of powder dipper: the metal ones with the little wooden handles (referred to as 'old' style), the red/black plastic dippers (referred to as 'red' or 'black', though apparently the color made no difference in the capacity of the dipper), and the modern ('yellow') dippers.

As pointed out elsewhere, the modern yellow dippers are graduated in cubic centimeters, the red/black in (supposedly) cubic inches, and the old style were marked in some other pattern.

Data sheets with copyright dates of around 1963 (and earlier) usually reference the 'old' style measure. Many 1963-dated data sheets also mention the new 'red/black' dippers but give the equivalent of the old dipper as well. For example, an old .30-06 set will say "Use Powder Measure 12M", a later version will say "Use Powder Measure 205 (Replaces and same as old 12M)", and the modern version will say to use 3.1cc.

The useful part of this information is that by examining these old data sheets, you can extrapolate what the correct yellow/red/black/old dipper would be for a set that is missing it's dipper. For example, if you had an old .257 Roberts set and the data sheet calls for a 14 powder dipper. You don't have a 14 in the old metal-and-wood style, but you do have a red/black 167..same thing. (And POSSIBLY the 2.8 cc.. but that's uncertain. Keep reading.)

It seems reasonable to conclude that the dippers in the modern sets would be equivalent to the older dippers for that same caliber. This appears the case on the surface, but there are enough differences that it would be foolish to make a conclusion from this. For example, the older .375 Winchester sets say to use a 141 dipper ( or a 16). Every other set that calls for a 141 dipper now uses a 2.8 cc dipper…. Except the .375 Win. which calls for a 2.5 cc. So in almost every case, any set that called for the 141 now uses the 2.8…the logical conclusion would be to say that the 141 and 2.8 are the same, but apparently not. The most likely situation is this: the old data sheets used the red/black and old-style measures interchangeably. The modern sets use new data, and that data may call for a different size dipper…therefore, you can’t assume they’re the same. You CAN, however, assume some of the red/black and old-style dippers are the same since Lee specifically tells you that on the data sheets.

Empirically, the thing to do would be to try them with a powder and see if they fill the other dipper to the same capacity. A 16 dipper, 141 dipper, and 2.8 cc dipper should all, in theory, hold the same amount. Not quite. There is some difference. Additionally, if the red/black are truly measured in cubic inches then there’s some discrepancy going on with the math. For example a 141 (.141 cu. In.) dipper should, mathematically, equal 2.3 cc rather than the 2.8 or 2.5 that the data suggests. A 190 (.190 cu. In.) dipper should be 3.1 cc, not the 3.4 that would seem likely. Clearly, if the red/black dippers are measured in cubic inches, and the yellow ones are measured in cubic centimeters, there is some weirdness going on with the math.

From gleaning through hundreds of data sheets, Lee confirms the following equivalents:

Red/
Black ---Old Style
020 --- Special X
039 --- Special H
052 --- F
065 --- 410
069 ---
108 ---
129 ---
141 --- 16
167 --- 14
190 --- 12
205 --- 12M
230 --- 10
258 ---

Since Lee said right on the data sheets that these were the equivalents, they can be used in confidence. If you have an old set that is missing it’s 12 dipper, you can make the set whole again with a 190 dipper, etc.
I provide this information for anyone who has an old Lee Loader set and is missing the dipper. The red/black dipper sets are still available on eBay and they may be a good investment for someone who collects Lee Loader sets and often is missing a dipper.

EDITED TO ADD:
Lee finally got back to me about the relationship between the red/black and yellow dippers:
"Red/Black Dipper Conversion:
The old red or black powder dippers were measured in Cubic Inches. To convert the old dippers to the new yellow dippers measured in Cubic Centimeters, you would have to use this conversion equation is as follows, or purchase new. http://leeprecision.com/powder-measure-kit.html
To convert Cubic Inches to Centimeters use this formula:
Cubic Inches x 16.387 = Cubic Centimeters
To convert Cubic Centimeters to Inches use this formula:
Cubic Centimeters / 16.387 = Cubic Inches "

Their math is different than the formulas I've seen used for converting cu. cm. and cu. in., however there are still some disparities even with the formula given by Lee. For example:
Red
Black -----Yellow
0.020-------0.33
0.039-------0.64
0.052-------0.85
0.065-------1.07
0.069-------1.13
0.108-------1.77
0.129-------2.11
0.141-------2.31
0.167-------2.74
0.190-------3.11
0.205-------3.36
0.230-------3.77
0.258-------4.23
If you do the math in the other direction, converting CC to CI, you get:
CC CI
0.3 0.018
0.5 0.031
0.7 0.043
1 0.061
1.3 0.079
1.6 0.098
1.9 0.116
2.2 0.134
2.5 0.153
2.8 0.171
3.1 0.189
3.4 0.207
3.7 0.226
4 0.244

Perhaps its a case of 'close enough'? The red/black '190' would come out as 3.11 cc, which is almost the same as the 3.1cc yellow dipper currently offered. But if you converted 3.1cc (not 3.11cc) you would come out with a '189' rather than a 190 in the red/black set. Play with the math and you'll see that there is apparently a bit of wiggle room in terms of "this dipper is the same as that one".

[cj8281]

Here is a listing that looks close to what you have that I compiled after acquiring a new and old set.
Edit* As a side note, the 020 dipper is hollow on the back side for target loads, my 38 spl card says that it will throw 2.5 of Bullseye on the back scoop.

Lee Old Powder dippers

Cu IN CC
020 .3277
039 .6391
052 .8521
065 1.0652
069 1.1307
108 1.7698
129 2.1139
141 2.3106
167 2.7366
190 3.1135
205 3.3593
230 3.769
258 4.2279

Modern Dippers
018 .3
031 .5
043 .7
061 1.0
079 1.3
098 1.6
116 1.9
134 2.2
153 2.5
171 2.8
189 3.1
207 3.4
226 3.7
244 4.0
262 4.3

In order
018 .3
020 .3277
031 .5
039 .6391
043 .7
052 .8521
061 1.0
065 1.0652
069 1.1307
079 1.3
098 1.6
108 1.7698
116 1.9
129 2.1139
134 2.2
141 2.3106
153 2.5
167 2.7366
171 2.8
189 3.1
190 3.1135
205 3.3593
207 3.4
226 3.7
230 3.769
244 4.0
258 4.2279
262 4.3

[cj8281]

I also acquired a copy of all the current Lee Loader Data sheets to use with my older Lee Loader kits. There is pretty close coverage in a lot of areas but some fair size gaps in others. Of course testing the actual throw of powder with a scale is highly recommended to see exactly what you are getting. I have been going through all the powders that I use and seeing what I can throw with the dippers that I have. I have been making 3x5 cards with a list of what my actual weights consistently thrown are. I am currently using a bit of Alliant's BE-86 and that isn't on any of the powder sheets.

[GasGuzzler]

My black 20 is double sided as well.

[cj8281]

My black 20 is double sided as well.

Is it in a Loader kit or in a set?

[GasGuzzler]

I wouldn't say anything is off topic here but it's in a pile of black dippers gifted by a member here back in the days of another forum.

I have about a dozen of them but no OEM set and no loader kits.

[Darto]

The grains of HERCO powder each measure will throw...